Betty ([info]brown_betty) wrote,
@ 2008-04-23 15:14:00
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Entry tags:feminism, rec-me, spam: poll

Crowd-sourcing, which is another thing entirely
I've unsubscribed from Pandagone's and Feministe's feeds, since I really can't fool myself any longer that an apology for Amanda's behavior is just around the corner, and I'm realizing the extent to which I relied on them to bring events to my attention. Does anyone have a favorite feminist blogger than can recommend to me? Bonus points if they've called Marcotte out on her bullshit.

On a different, yet related subject, I'm kind of interested in getting reactions on this question, so, a poll. No right or wrong answers, and I'm expecting to get a wide range, so:

ETA: new poll, since I left out a REALLY OBVIOUS one, sorry if you already voted! Please select all that apply.

Poll #1175963 'cuz not everyone is me
Open to: All, detailed results viewable to: All

In a non-sexually coded, semi-public setting, where you know perhaps 2% of the people well, a man you do not know comes up to you and says "You have beautiful breasts. Would you be offended if I touched them?" This is, to you:

View Answers

A sexual assault
38 (17.8%)

A compliment
19 (8.9%)

A conversation starter
1 (0.5%)

A sexual overture
117 (54.7%)

Affirming
0 (0.0%)

Exciting
3 (1.4%)

Flattering
15 (7.0%)

Frightening
162 (75.7%)

Honest
10 (4.7%)

Inappropriate
200 (93.5%)

Polite
3 (1.4%)

Rude
174 (81.3%)

Sexual harassment
161 (75.2%)

Sexy
0 (0.0%)

Surprising
110 (51.4%)

Pressuring
136 (63.6%)

Presumptuous
189 (88.3%)

Provocative
24 (11.2%)

In the same context and manner, suppose it is a woman, or someone not male-presenting, who says, "You have beautiful breasts. Would you be offended if I touched them?" This is, to you:

View Answers

A sexual assault
12 (5.6%)

A compliment
24 (11.3%)

A conversation starter
14 (6.6%)

A sexual overture
112 (52.6%)

Affirming
3 (1.4%)

Exciting
9 (4.2%)

Flattering
34 (16.0%)

Frightening
61 (28.6%)

Honest
18 (8.5%)

Inappropriate
194 (91.1%)

Polite
3 (1.4%)

Rude
151 (70.9%)

Sexual harassment
98 (46.0%)

Sexy
7 (3.3%)

Surprising
127 (59.6%)

Pressuring
90 (42.3%)

Presumptuous
171 (80.3%)

Provocative
28 (13.1%)

I do not have experience with having breasts, but when I imagine this scenario, I think I would feel that it was:

View Answers

A sexual assault
0 (0.0%)

A compliment
0 (0.0%)

A conversation starter
1 (8.3%)

A sexual overture
6 (50.0%)

Affirming
0 (0.0%)

Exciting
0 (0.0%)

Flattering
0 (0.0%)

Frightening
6 (50.0%)

Honest
1 (8.3%)

Inappropriate
8 (66.7%)

Polite
1 (8.3%)

Rude
6 (50.0%)

Sexual harassment
5 (41.7%)

Sexy
0 (0.0%)

Surprising
5 (41.7%)

Pressuring
4 (33.3%)

Presumptuous
5 (41.7%)

Provocative
0 (0.0%)


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(Post a new comment)

I was thinking about this last night.
[info]reflectedeve
2008-04-23 09:01 pm UTC (link)
I feel somewhat hypocritical because . . . I can't imagine ever having a positive reaction to such an incident if it were initiated by a man, but initiation by a woman would make a positive reaction a possibility, depending on specific circumstances. (So, what I see as all negative responses to the first question; negative and positive to the second.)

I mean, obviously this has a great deal to do with straight male privilege and the way that it is in the background (of my awareness) at all times, much to my discomfort. (Also, I am bisexual but lean strongly towards women . . . a fact that I suspect may not be unrelated.)

Objectively, I think that such behavior from a complete stranger of either gender is inappropriate in almost every case, but being honest with myself? It would feel different.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: I was thinking about this last night.
[info]lcsbanana
2008-04-23 09:13 pm UTC (link)
I don't think that's hypocritical at all, it's just rational.

Like, in the male situation--
Chances that this guy is getting off on scaring/humiliating me as much as or more than on my actual body: quite high
Chances that this guy, assuming this encounter never happened, is someone whose hands I would want on my breasts: vanishingly low
Chances that this guy will take "no" with good grace and not whine, stalk, threaten, or just reach out and grab anyway: not miniscule, but certainly on the low end

Therefore, that situation does not fill me with happy feelings. With a woman, OTOH, the respective odds would be "very low," "very high," and "*really* low," so while I would feel offended and off-balance and nervous, I wouldn't be *incredibly* upset and I might have some positive or ambivalent feelings too.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: I was thinking about this last night. - [info]shininghalf, 2008-04-23 09:14 pm UTC
Re: I was thinking about this last night. - [info]shininghalf, 2008-04-23 09:17 pm UTC
Re: I was thinking about this last night. - [info]cereta, 2008-04-23 10:04 pm UTC
Re: I was thinking about this last night. - [info]brown_betty, 2008-04-23 10:06 pm UTC
Re: I was thinking about this last night. - [info]cereta, 2008-04-23 10:14 pm UTC
Re: I was thinking about this last night. - [info]brown_betty, 2008-04-24 03:42 am UTC

[info]saavikam77
2008-04-23 09:12 pm UTC (link)
So far I'm the only person to consider the question a sexual assault. I just can't see it any other way, b/c how am I supposed to know whether this person will back off if I say no? It's a terrifying position to be put in, as it creates an instant atmosphere of fear for one's safety.

Since I reposted a few links to the original 'boob project' in my journal, along with my own commentary, I'm pretty much assured to have lost a real life friend, since he came in and basically flamed all the women responding to my entry. I can't say I feel that bad about it, actually. I'm saddened to learn that this person I've known for many years has such a degrading attitude toward women, but I have no hard feelings about leaving him behind. I just don't want those kind of attitudes or assumptions around me.

Thank you!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lcsbanana
2008-04-23 09:16 pm UTC (link)
I think I would definitely consider it a precursor to likely sexual assault, and fear would be a 100% reasonable response, but personally I wouldn't say 'assault' unless physical force or more explicit coercion was involved. I think we tend to devalue the strength of "harrassment," because sexual harrassment without any touching or explicit threats can be incredibly violent and destructive.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]saavikam77, 2008-04-23 09:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2008-04-24 03:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]saavikam77, 2008-04-26 01:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pecunium, 2008-06-05 08:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rubynye, 2008-04-24 03:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]saavikam77, 2008-04-26 01:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lexica510, 2008-04-24 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saavikam77, 2008-04-26 01:33 pm UTC

[info]kutsuwamushi
2008-04-23 09:13 pm UTC (link)
I think that you might have gotten a lot more "sexual harassment" answers if your poll didn't present this as a one-time event. I'm iffy on calling it sexual harassment in this case, but if I was at some event where this sort of behavior was being promoted, then I would definitely see that as sexual harassment.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lilacsigil
2008-04-24 01:20 am UTC (link)
Yes, this was my reasoning, too. The one-off question is horribly rude, but, with the information given, I don't think it's sexual harrassment. As you say, in a different environment, it well could be.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2008-04-24 03:53 am UTC

[info]poisonivory
2008-04-23 09:35 pm UTC (link)
If explanation of my answers helps, I'm straight, but the only difference between my answers for a man and for a woman is that I (probably) wouldn't feel frightened by a woman. That's the closest to a positive reaction I have for any scenario. (And now I feel vaguely guilty for being frigid, which is a whole 'nother issue...)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]slipstream_chan
2008-04-23 10:00 pm UTC (link)
I tried to imagine it with a bunch of different women, and while there are definately instances in which I would be scared of a woman approaching in this situation, it didn't quite provoke the same effect (either immediately felt or delayed) of heart-twisting horror and anger.

I'm reminded of the thread in the original post where someone (I think it was [info]theferrett's wife?) defended him by saying that he enjoyed some gender play and walking around in women's heals, and the person she was defending him to said that made her feel much better about the whole situation.

While I can understand more forgiving feelings towards someone who appears to play into your gender roles, this sense of security feels alarmingly false to me. I was sexually assaulted by a guy who loved Rocky Horror and would cross-dress as Dr. Frankenfurter for screenings, and he allegedly did the same and far worse to many other women. As a fan of gender-fuckery, it frightens me that there are those who would twist this as a way to gain access to women, manipulating the general feeling of safety among women towards their advantage.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]poisonivory, 2008-04-23 11:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2008-04-23 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]poisonivory, 2008-04-23 11:11 pm UTC

[info]rydra_wong
2008-04-23 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. Just to add some more pondering: I didn't tick "a sexual overture" in either case, even though breast-touching is clearly a sexual activity.

But I guess my feeling is that "hey, I wanna grab this bit of your body" is not the behaviour of someone who's actually interested in maybe going somewhere private and engaging in mutually pleasurable sexual activity (not least because it pretty much guarantees that they aren't going to get to do the latter).

It may be a precursor to sexual assault or it may be an insult or someone's idea of a joke or it may be that the person genuinely just wants to touch my breasts and then go away again. But it's not any kind of invitation to sexual activity of mutual interest, which is how I tend to read "sexual overture".

(Reply to this)


[info]fengi
2008-04-23 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Here's my own take on the matter, if it seems inappropriate please forgive me.

Additional context for the joke is here:

A White Man and A White Woman are at a table playing Society: The Gathering

White Man: Sorry, but for a backpay spell to work it must be played within three turns of the income disparity card, and I played that at the start of the game.

White Woman: I only knew the card was there last turn.

White Man: I don't make the rules, I just follow them.

White Woman: Right. Well, I'm playing an exposure card - your immigration agent has been caught in a sexual abuse scandal.

White Man: Wow, that's a tough spell.

White Woman: All of your pundit cards are suspended from using the term illegal for two turns.

White Man: Impressive.

Brown Woman: Say, that looks just like my deck.

[Pause. Silence.]

Brown Woman: Excuse me.

[White woman puts down another card.]

White Man: Well played.

Brown Woman: That looks like the new silver edition I got at DragonCon from the WoC booth...it's even stacked in the same order.

White Woman: Are you calling me a thief? I have the receipt for these.

Brown Woman: No, I'm saying you're -

White Woman: Well, you aren't playing, so whatever.

Brown Woman: But I've had like ten bouts with this guy...if you dealt me in...

White Man: Hey, leave me out of this.

[pause. silence]

Brown Woman: Um, anyway...

[pause. silence]

Brown Woman: Y'know, it would really help if.

[White Woman sighs loudly. White Man puts down a card.]

Brown Woman: I'll just be over here if y'all figure it out.

Gay Woman: [sitting next to her] Don't get discouraged, they include me about every fourth hand - it just takes some waiting.

(Reply to this)


[info]cmshaw
2008-04-23 10:14 pm UTC (link)
interestingly, when i tried to run these scenarios in my head to offer the most immediate responses, i picture the man in question #1 as approaching with hand poised to grope the moment a put-off is not given whereas the woman in question #2 has her hands at her sides throughout the posing of the question every time i consider it. yeah, this is totally not a gender-neutral setup!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]brown_betty
2008-04-23 10:33 pm UTC (link)
It's so incredibly gendered, and yet, and I think most fatally, it refuses to admit of any kind of gender analysis which presupposes inequality.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]dracunculus
2008-04-23 10:48 pm UTC (link)
I can pretty easily imagine a setting where this would be an effective come-on--delivered from a girl--provided I felt safe and relaxed in the setting, and the girl was my type. Even if I wasn't interested, I might find her amusingly cheeky and want to get to know her better.

I cannot imagine any setting where this would be an effective come-on from a guy, even though I'm bi and if anything male-leaning. I wouldn't be scared, but I would assume that the questioner was a skeezy dude in whom I had no further interest. (I need to know a man well before I can relax enough to accord them the same physical trust that I will grant a woman off the bat, and I think this is actually a pretty rational position.)

I cannot imagine any setting where I would interpret this as anything other than a come-on.

(Reply to this)


[info]bkm5191
2008-04-23 11:26 pm UTC (link)
I ticked frightening in the scenario that a male said it to me, but I wanted to add, not 'frightening' in that I would be scared of my safety (in the way I would if I were by myself and outdoors, because I am assuming this is at a con where there are people around) but frightening that people assume they could do this.

I would totally tell security.

(Reply to this)


[info]elfwreck
2008-04-23 11:36 pm UTC (link)
Not sure I can answer. It depends on the asker. Not on the asker's gender, but his/her demeanor, tone, expression... "vibe," for lack of a better term.

I don't think I'd ever think it was "an assault," but whether it was rude or not depends on how it's done: do they interrupt a conversation, or wait for a pause; do they jump in out of nowhere, or do that little "hovering for minute to catch your attention" thing that people do at conventions to indicate they'd like to join the conversation? Do they look at my face, or my breasts, while asking the question? How polite are they to my companions, if any?

At worst, I expect I'd consider it rude and pathetic. At best, a nifty way to kick off a relationship. (Of some sort.) Most likely, a flattering comment from a stranger; whether I would say "yes" depends on a lot of factors, including my mood at the time. (I have been propositioned for various acts and permissions by random strangers, including stuff a lot more intimate than light public groping. If the question is politely put, I'm not offended.)

(Reply to this)


[info]smashingstars
2008-04-23 11:44 pm UTC (link)
Personal perception is so fickle. I was wondering why I didn't consider it sexual assault, and I realized that it was because of my own experiences. The experience I consider assault involved a guy grabbing me; the experiences I consider harassment were verbal only. My logic -- if there is any -- was based entirely on my past.

I could only imagine what I would do if it was a woman, as I've never experienced it. Some of my answers were certainly prompted by what I thought was the "right" answer.

Provocative post. Very thoughtful, thank you.

(Reply to this)


[info]nwhepcat
2008-04-24 12:10 am UTC (link)
Disclaimer: I haven't read the initial post that started all this but I've seen the reactions all over my flist. I'm about to run off to class and I would have to think about it to take the poll, so I just will give my top-of-the-head observation:

The question doesn't even ask permission, it asks if there are ramifications if he does what he damn pleases. That torks me off.

My answer to that question? It might be, "Ask the guy who grabbed my ass on the street and had me chasing him and screaming obscenities at him for half a block."

I also like, "Would it offend you if I put my cigarette out in your eye?"

Seriously, I have had so many experiences with masturbating fuckwads in my 20 years in NYC that a friend suggested I turn my stories into a one-woman show. And there are actually enough that I could do this. I have no patience for this entitled bullshit.

(Reply to this)


[info]ndgmtlcd
2008-04-24 12:28 am UTC (link)
I was raised in an environment where even using the word "breast(s)" would have been considered a sign of boorishness and a hopeless lack of culture. I work in a large bureaucracy where things are pretty much the same except that the word is used for technical reasons, given the medical goals of people around me. The kind of quote I've just seen here is something which seems to come out from a different culture. I can only be surprised at what goes on in other societies when I see something like it. I can say the same about those people which I consider my friends.

(Reply to this)


[info]rivkat
2008-04-24 01:22 am UTC (link)
So I did answer "compliment" as well as all the negative words, because I think it would be intended as such, not experienced as such.

(Reply to this)


[info]xtricks
2008-04-24 01:24 am UTC (link)
I guess for me as a man, I don't feel it's automatically sexually harassing or assault - going on the assumption that the people (men or women) doing the asking would take no for an answer. A lot of responders have assumed that the person asking to touch would not take no for an answer (or, at least, that a man wouldn't). In a random sci-fi con or slash con I would feel that this sort of behavior (or play) is not appropriate, in a kink con or bar, or retreat, I would. I would also feel that, in this situation, that other people (both men and women) have the right to ask to feel up a man's package. Something that I, personally, would be much more interested in particpating in - being as I like dicks better than breasts.

In addition, being gay, and my partner having multiple partners of his own, and both of us engage in things like semi-public sex, alternative sexuality and group sex - my assumption is that if someone asks politely and you say no, that no is no. In other words, consent is the key, no matter who is doing what to whom and because I prefer not to live in a world of fear, I assume that people will respect my consent or lack thereof.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]rubynye
2008-04-24 04:02 am UTC (link)
because I prefer not to live in a world of fear, I assume that people will respect my consent or lack thereof.

I think that for many of the participants in this discussion, we aren't assuming that people will respect our consent or lack thereof not because we want to live in a world of fear but because it's been our experience of the world that there's a nontrivial chance that people won't respect our consent or lack thereof. I know this is my experience, and I've been told by more than one person that it's their experience as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2008-04-24 04:21 am UTC

[info]bibliokat
2008-04-24 04:29 am UTC (link)
I think sexuality is definitely playing into people's answers, but as a straight woman, I answered exactly the same for both a man or a woman approaching me this way. One reason for this may be because my female friends are not physically demonstrative, and we don't touch a lot so I'm uncomfortable imagining anyone even joking about this. Unless I was in a location where it was obvious I was looking for sex (like a club purposely for finding sexual partners), I would find this incredibly inappropriate and frightening no matter who said it.

(Reply to this)


[info]shadowvalkyrie
2008-04-24 05:22 am UTC (link)
I think I'd be equally weirded out in both cases and wonder if these people had ever heard of such a thing as privacy and/or manners. I fail to see this any way but sexual and that doesn't belong into any remotely public place (except maybe a discoteque toilet, but even there people aren't usually that direct). Moreover, I do understand people who are bad at flirting, because I am too, but what's so difficult about at least trying? If you want to touch someone, you have to follow the commonly accepted ritual. (Which occasionally annoys me, too, because I'm extremely bad at social stuff and prone to falling face-first in the metaphorical mud, but I don't see why anyone else shouldn't have to try.)

The point that I feel makes me a bit of a hypocrite, is not that I'd treat genders differently (which I wouldn't), but that my answer would depend to a considerable degree on the physical attractivity of the person asking. (Yes, I'm shallow, I know but I just can't find the off-switch.) I'd probably still be weirded out, but I'd say something like "You can stand me a drink and we'll talk about it." or "If I get to touch you in return."

As long as it's only one person, I probably wouldn't feel threatened or scared, as some commenters seem to think you should be (except if the other person was a whole lot taller and broader and behaving overtly threatening), but that might have to do with living in a lower-criminality countryside area and I might well feel different and more uneasy in a city. Anyway, I do trust my self-defence abilities in case someone won't take no for an answer, so I'd only be annoyed and possibly offended. (And to agree with what people recently remarked on a discussion in Petra's journal, I think that confidence is a huge reason why people wouldn't approach me in the first place.)

Less related, I'm not sure whether to admire someone who asks something like for honesty or courage... I'd be more likely to wonder whether they have a mental disorder or just plain no shame. I mean, I do understand the urge to touch someone pretty, but I'm sensitive to invasions of personal space and I generally assume most other people are, too.

(Reply to this)


[info]lomedet
2008-04-24 06:28 am UTC (link)
hmmm...

the thing I noticed, in my responses to those to situations, is that they both tripped my 'inappropriate, forward and boundary-infringing' buttons, but only in the situation with the man would I have been *scared* or felt pressured. With a woman, (depending on the woman) i might be annoyed, but I wouldn't be afraid of her.

(Reply to this)


[info]re_silvera
2008-04-24 09:30 am UTC (link)
If it hasn't been recommended before, The F-Word is a very well-respected british feminist blog. I found it since I'm desperately trying to find more online resources in Britain seeing how I will be living there shortly (and most of the blogs I read are American, a nation in which I will never live).

(Reply to this)


[info]chalcopyrite
2008-04-24 03:24 pm UTC (link)
Note: in either case, I would probably be unable to come up with anything like a verbal response, because I just do not have a reaction scripted for that situation. But for all the reasons LC listed out, a female/non-male-presenting doing this would be a lot less threatening.

(Reply to this)


[info]re_silvera
2008-04-24 03:57 pm UTC (link)
Incidentally! I just realised the song "White Girl" by Heavens to Betsy is, shall we say, quite appropriate for the Amanda situation:

we should have talked about this
a long time ago
but i didn't have to think about it
that's what this song is about
white girl
i want to change the world
but i won't change anything
unless i change my racist self
it's a privilege
it's a background
it's everything that i own
it's thinking i'm the hero of this pretty white song
it's thinking i'm the hero of this pretty white world
white girl
i want to change the world
but i won't change anything
unless i change my racist self

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]brown_betty
2008-04-24 07:23 pm UTC (link)
'the hero of this pretty white world.' Ouch, now there's a sharp thing to keep in mind.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]machineplay
2008-04-24 06:19 pm UTC (link)
Hey, I finally got over my chronic hermitism and added you to my reading list. I'm also looking for a good replacement for Pandagon and Feministe, which used to be my go-to blogs, a more responsible and reliable source. I'm still skin-crawly about Marcotte's behaviour and the defense of it. I got some good blog links from dearwhitefeminists.wordpress.com but I haven't had time to sort through them. I blame The Ferrett. <.<;;

Edited at 2008-04-24 06:20 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]brown_betty
2008-04-24 07:22 pm UTC (link)
Oh, wow, thanks. That's (among other things, wince, wince) a great collection of links.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]chiromancy
2008-04-24 07:06 pm UTC (link)
*Sneaks in.* I don't know how/when I first found your journal, and I read it only rarely, but every time I do I kick myself for not doing it more. Friending, fessing up, and finally commenting on something:

Whoa. This is REALLY REALLY REALLY not a gender-neutral swap, as pointed out by the responder above. Because: A biological woman (as far as you know) asking to touch my breasts, is confronting me from a completely different position than would a man posing the same question. I don't even want to get into the rats' nest of assumptions about sexual preference that the question brings up, but, hey, just on a stupidly fundamental level--
--A woman who asks me this question has breasts of her own (though they may not have the iconic breast role/Glamour, for any number of reasons, from personal gender identity to medical issues). She is approaching me/my breasts from somewhere on the same side of the pornographic gaze.
--A man who asks me this question does not have breasts of his own (flip-flop version of same disclaimer applies). To him, me/my breasts are other, are not self, are alien, are exotic, in the most basic, quantitative way.

To me, that's a key difference; it underlies (or overlies?) the power dynamic. It underLINES the probability that the asker, simply by asking, is getting off on my difference, my discomfort, my boobs-he-hasn't-got. It's an {entitlement based on the prospect of acquisition} rather than an {exploitation of presumed commonality}. Both are creepy, but for me it's the second that brings the fight-or-flight.

I think it's a jack move either way. [/understatement]

I have thick defenses when it comes to verbal interactions (which can be bad, can make me "stick around to see what happens"), and in this situation, with a person of either biological sex, I would feel sexually harrassed, though not assaulted. I admit that my lack of specific fear response in the XX version isn't particularly rational, and probably has some weird internal misogynistic underpinnings, but whatever. It is what it is. Trust and "sameness" and gaze are for real, and so is sexist bull pucky, and none of those things are very rational.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]brown_betty
2008-04-24 07:21 pm UTC (link)
To me, that's a key difference; it underlies (or overlies?) the power dynamic. It underLINES the probability that the asker, simply by asking, is getting off on my difference, my discomfort, my boobs-he-hasn't-got. It's an {entitlement based on the prospect of acquisition} rather than an {exploitation of presumed commonality}. Both are creepy, but for me it's the second that brings the fight-or-flight.

There's just such a big mares nest of issues in this, I agree. For example, exhibitionists get off on the fact that they can do it to you, make you uncomfortable, and you can't do anything about it. To what extent would someone who approached you this way in public be relying on your disinclination to make a fuss? I don't know, but I wonder.

A lot of people seem surprised that they don't evaluate this in a gender neutral way, but I think it's pretty rational. The fact is that we live in a world where most sexual assaults on women are perpetrated by men, and it's sane to recognize that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]chiromancy, 2008-04-24 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chiromancy, 2008-04-24 08:35 pm UTC

[info]sundancekid
2008-04-24 08:15 pm UTC (link)
I'm really uncomfortable with just the question being considered sexual assault. The idea of words as assults seems... dangerous to me. A PRECURSOR to assault, quite possibly. And if the questioner touches you when you say no, that's absolutely assault, and I think that just the question can be harrassment for sure.

I picked several words, but "surprising" is the main one, because I think -- man or woman -- I would just keeping thinking, Seriously? Seriously?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]sovietkiki
2008-04-24 09:50 pm UTC (link)
(Excuse me butting in!)

Whilst I myself don't see asking as a sexual assault, under UK Law it can be defined that way. According to the Offences Against The Person Act, an assault can be defined as, "An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force." Therefore, if somebody came up to me and asked to touch my breasts, I could give a negative answer - but still fear that my answer could be negated and they could touch me anyway, thus inflicting a battery. This, according to the OAP, is therefore an assault.

*goes to comment about the rest of the post*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]sundancekid, 2008-04-24 10:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sovietkiki, 2008-04-24 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pecunium, 2008-06-05 09:51 pm UTC

[info]sovietkiki
2008-04-24 09:53 pm UTC (link)
I have a big problem with my personal space - in that I don't like people touching me at all, ever - so if somebody came up and asked me that, I would be terrified. I'd also find it highly inappropriate, especially in a public place surrounded by people I don't know, and pressuring. I'm incredibly shy, and whenever I talk to new people I tend to assent to their general opinion before bringing in my own inner strength and finding the bravery to state my own opinions. Given that I was in a strange environment where I didn't know anybody, I would probably say yes and then regret it even as it was happening.

(Reply to this)

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