Betty ([info]brown_betty) wrote,
@ 2007-10-21 17:53:00
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Entry tags:fandom, meta: writing

Some thoughts on writing outside my experience
Recently, and not so recently, I've come across a couple of stories, or had them pointed out to me, within greater fandom, where the history or culture of marginalized groups was employed to make a story more exotic or interesting, with the result the story was offensive.

So I'm trying to think of how one can avoid this. Because on the one hand, I don't think we want stories all about white people in white-land steeped in white-culture, but on the other hand, dipping into someone else's culture for shiny colours to dab on one's story is problematic.

These are some guidelines I've tentatively put together for my own use. I'm indebted to many people on my friendslist for helping to articulate this, for challenging my assumptions, and for pointing out things I've overlooked. I'd appreciate anyone's critique or suggestions.


1. How easy is it for me to pass as white? How easy is it for my characters to pass as white?

I identify as, and am nearly universally identified as a white person. As a white person, I need to expend extra effort to be aware of things to which my privilege has made me oblivious. If my characters are read as white, then their actions in my story will be read in that context. Their power relationship with characters who do not read as white will be asymmetric by default.

2. Do I know anything about the culture or history in question? How much do I know?

I think this may be a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing: knowing a little is almost worse than knowing nothing, because one's odds of making reference to some important part of someone else's history or culture without fully understanding it are much greater. I'm not sure how much research or familiarity is necessary when using someone else's culture or history, but I'm pretty sure more is always better.

2. a) Where do I know it from?

One mechanism of oppression is control of narrative: history is written by the victors. I need to be really careful both not to perpetrate this, and not to rely on these sources when doing my research. Relying on H. Rider Haggard for information about the Bantu would be really bad. This is sort of like assuming you know all about New York because you've seen a lot of Friends.

3. Does the culture/history belong to living people? Extra sensitivity is called for if those to whom the culture belongs might encounter one's work.

For example, dealing insensitively with HIV is probably more offensive than dealing insensitively with the Bubonic Plague, simply because the odds of someone reading my work who has had their lives personally affected HIV are non-zero, while the odds of someone reading my work who has had their lives affected by the Black Plague are-- well. I understand the bacteria still persists, but due to modern medicine need not be fatal, and does not generally achieve epidemic proportions.

4. Does the culture/history belong to a historically or presently marginalized group? If so, extra sensitivity is called for.

Doing badly with British culture isn't the atrocity that doing badly by First Nation culture would be. British culture has been exported world-wide. First Nation culture in Canada was actively suppressed, and attempts were made to destroy it entirely, by the ethnic group with which I identify and with which I am identified.

5. What function does the culture or history in question serve in my story? Is it a plot device, or a set-piece? Do the members of that culture come across as fully realized characters with histories and motivations apart from their interaction with the protagonist?

Obviously this is a bit subjective, but I guess I'm trying to get at the question of whether the story attempts to deal holistically and organically with the event/history/culture, or it attempts to invoke the event for its emotional connotations. The latter is to be avoided.

6. Is the tone, mood, or purpose of my story an appropriate tone or mood to adopt in dealing with the history or culture in question?

This is a bit trickier, because you know, I think The Producers adopts a pretty good tone for dealing with the third Reich! But perhaps this is because they don't deal with the Holocaust at all. In general, I'm pretty sure it's bad to invoke someone else's tragedy in a crack-fic.

6. b) Who is the intended audience for my work? Will the story read differently for those who are not the intended audience?

Unless you're distributing your story on stamped lead tablets, you can't really control who's reading it. My story could be read by people who I didn't expect to read it, maybe by members of the marginalized group in question, or maybe by people who are unfamiliar with me, and don't have any background knowledge of me that would influence their reading.

7. Am I prepared to deal with the possibility that I have, despite my efforts to the contrary, written an offensive work?

Because you know, I'm human, and I fuck up. Maybe I missed something in my research or just had a bad brain day. Can I deal with that like an adult and apologize?


Supplemental notes:
On censorship: Censorship is when a controlling group or body deletes or withholds information from the public. I am not a controlling group or body, although if you feel the need for some sort of dictator in your life, please apply to me in writing.

On writing: Writing the Other has come to me highly recommended, although I have not been able to check it out myself. Those interested may wish to look it up.




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[info]xanphibian
2007-10-21 11:19 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this post and the link.

(Reply to this)


[info]huzzlewhat
2007-10-21 11:45 pm UTC (link)
This is great. Thanks for this.

(Reply to this)


[info]lilacsigil
2007-10-22 12:26 am UTC (link)
This is sort of like assuming you know all about New York because you've seen a lot of Friends.

And Law and Order - now I'm really an expert!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brown_betty
2007-10-22 12:31 am UTC (link)
And Law and Order — now I'm really an expert!

asdfjkl yes!

In some cases, it's more like assuming you know all about New York, because you've watched a lot of Neon Genesis Evangelion.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2007-11-02 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 01:47 am UTC

[info]glossing
2007-10-22 01:29 am UTC (link)
This really came together beautifully. Thanks so much.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-22 01:50 am UTC (link)
Thank you.

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[info]lazar_grrl
2007-10-22 01:41 am UTC (link)
One thing you might want to consider (and I'm not entirely sure how to phrase this, and it may fall under #5): Is the culture/event necessary to or a vital part of your story? If you have, say, a Chilean refugee as a character, does bringing up the fact that she was tortured for dissident activities during the reign of the military junta mean anything to the story or are you just throwing in backstory for her where you haven't for anyone else? Why should the reader know about it? Are you putting this in just for the sake of putting it in to show how "different" she is? And how big of a departure from the story is this cultural or historical information?

I've never quite gotten why people will write something that was essentially an action-driven piece, then suddenly stop and go into the "different" character's background with nary a tie-in to the plot, then just keep going with the action. Does this make any sense?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brown_betty
2007-10-22 01:54 am UTC (link)
I think I see what you mean: is this one character's "exotic" background developed in detail just because it's so shiny and unfamiliar, and if so, maybe it didn't really need to be there in the first place. Yes?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lazar_grrl, 2007-10-22 02:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slashpine, 2007-10-23 05:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-23 06:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slashpine, 2007-10-23 07:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]slashpine, 2007-10-23 07:39 am UTC

[info]offdutydane
2007-10-22 03:06 am UTC (link)
This reminded me about something Anne Rice had to say about writing about what you know :

Maya in Seattle asks will I ever have vampires of different races in my books. What limits me in terms of race is what I know. I can go only so far in my genuine understanding of other races. Fro [sic] example, regarding the Japanese, though I have tremendous respect for the culture and the art, I don't know enough about the Japanese heart and soul to create a Japanese character of depth in my work.

Taken from here.

I really wish I could bring this discussion up in my GRM 491 class about minority groups in Germany, because our current topic is exoticism, but I have a feeling no one wants to hear about slashy fanfic ( okay, one guy might, but the rest ... ), even if it is relevant.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-22 03:10 am UTC (link)
Huh. I'm-- really uncomfortable with Rice's response. The way she discusses the main difference between herself and a Japanese person as being not a matter of culture and art, but of "heart and soul" seems to argue that there's some sort of essential difference (not situated in culture!) Maybe I'm reading too much into this short snippet, though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shininghalf, 2007-10-22 03:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]offdutydane, 2007-10-22 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 04:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratcreature, 2007-10-22 10:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 06:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratcreature, 2007-10-22 06:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 10:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2007-11-02 01:27 am UTC
and because I never quite get to the point, I only lead up to it... - [info]offdutydane, 2007-10-22 04:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]delux_vivens, 2007-10-22 09:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 10:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lenadances, 2007-10-22 10:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 11:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]skywardprodigal, 2007-10-23 12:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jennem, 2007-10-23 03:20 am UTC

[info]cryptoxin
2007-10-22 04:25 pm UTC (link)
(here via [info]rydra_wong)

This is a great list! In thinking about the Cambodia story, I'd expand on your #5 for stories about characters from a dominant culture set in other cultures:

Do the characters from other cultures have their own individual voices in the story? Are they treated as individuals, or as generic/homogeneous representatives of their culture? How would the story read differently if it were told from their point of view? Does the story imply that the assumptions of the POV characters are accurate and should be taken at face value ("what a happy, simple people!") or does it complicate those assumptions and suggest ways that they might reflect cultural biases and blind-spots?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]vee_fic
2007-10-22 08:50 pm UTC (link)
OMG GRR and various other asscapped epithets. In trying to do my "educate people willing to learn" duty I had to read the verdommt story in question, and I about bit my tongue off with the 'wow, these people love being poor!' condescenscion.

Ohhhhh the dope-slapping I would like to do.

Ahem. [info]brown_betty, this is very helpful and concise, thank you. I was pointed to this from [info]heyschasm's comments, and I'm glad to see it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 10:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-23 12:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]astaria51, 2007-10-23 03:18 am UTC

[info]executrix
2007-10-22 06:56 pm UTC (link)
The risk of having a bunch of Satedans picket one's office is, of course, vanishingly small, but I think it matters whether the culture or history is canon (e.g., an SGA writer who never mentions Ronon or Teyla probably has Issues), compatible with canon (e.g., UNCLE regularly sent its agents to many countries), or completely tacked on.

And I know it wouldn't tell us all that much about Thailand, but I'm tempted by the idea of how Bayliss and Falsone would react if they got sent to Thailand to interview some witnesses and chase a suspect...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brown_betty
2007-10-22 07:00 pm UTC (link)
Or if the culture in question is a thinly disguised version of a real culture; I think that needs to be factored in, too.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]puritybrown, 2007-10-22 08:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puritybrown, 2007-10-22 09:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 09:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]executrix, 2007-10-22 09:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-22 10:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puritybrown, 2007-10-22 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]executrix, 2007-10-22 10:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]puritybrown, 2007-10-23 01:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]executrix, 2007-10-23 02:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rydra_wong, 2007-10-23 12:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]executrix, 2007-10-23 02:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rydra_wong, 2007-10-23 02:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]executrix, 2007-10-23 02:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2007-10-27 03:36 pm UTC

[info]cofax7
2007-10-22 07:54 pm UTC (link)
This is a great post; thank you for making it.

I'm reminded of Mely's comments on the whole issue, as well, which comes down to: there is no gold star. You're never off the hook for being respectful, you should always be questioning whether you're doing right by your readers and your characters.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brown_betty
2007-10-22 07:57 pm UTC (link)
I was just recently reading your story, "Joshua Tree" (and didn't leave feedback because I'm a bad fangirl) and thinking that although nearly everything in that story was strange to me, nothing was "exotic." I think perhaps exotic is an optical illusion produced by not seeing humans as people.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cofax7, 2007-10-22 08:34 pm UTC

[info]lenadances
2007-10-22 08:23 pm UTC (link)
This is the best response I've seen to this. (I would offer to nibble on your tasty brains, but it seems rather presumptuous on short acquaintance.) I'm going to bookmark this and link it elsewhere the next time I don't trust myself for a good answer on this subject (which is, pretty much, every time). If that's okay. Is that okay?

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-22 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! Yes, you may certainly link; I would be flattered.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ann1962
2007-10-22 09:28 pm UTC (link)
I really like this list. Thank you for something all writers should consider.

And actually, a great list to ask one's self for one's own actions in day to day life.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-22 10:20 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'd kind of like it if at least some of my daily actions could be appropriation-free, you know? I don't know if I'm prepared to contemplate the politics of coffee before I've had any in the morning. But sadly, you are right.

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[info]kita0610
2007-10-22 11:57 pm UTC (link)
This is AWESOMESAUCE.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 01:18 am UTC (link)
Thank you.

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[info]skywardprodigal
2007-10-23 12:06 am UTC (link)
*sing-song*

This looks goo--ood.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 01:19 am UTC (link)
I'm really pleased by the reception it's getting! I appreciate your link.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]skywardprodigal, 2007-10-23 02:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-23 04:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]skywardprodigal, 2007-10-23 02:29 pm UTC

[info]a2zmom
2007-10-23 12:47 am UTC (link)
Thank you for a thoughtful, informative post.

(One of the reasons The Producers works so well is it was written by a Jew and therefore was able to appropriately and satirically skewer Nazism. And one of the reasons Blazing Saddles was so hysterical regarding racism in America is that one of the writers was Richard Pryor. I would suggest that writing humor about something that is beyond comprehension should only be attempted by a member of the affected tribe and even then only by a comedic genius.)

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 12:51 am UTC (link)
Well, the problem is that I don't know of a literary rule that can't be appended with "Unless you're a genius. Then do what you like." I mean, it's not a problem that geniuses seem to be able to break rules and make it work, it's a problem that the people most in need of the advice seem least able to tell they're not geniuses.

But yeah, a member of the injured group is usually the best person to skewer offensiveness toward that group with comedy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]a2zmom, 2007-10-23 02:15 am UTC

[info]gchick
2007-10-23 01:05 am UTC (link)
*applauds*

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[info]midnightsjane
2007-10-23 02:36 am UTC (link)
Here on a link from [info]kita0610
Very well thought out and sensible approach to a difficult subject for anyone who writes or reads fic. I'm not a writer, but I do read fanfic, and have on occasion wondered if there was a better way to approach the issues of race and culture in writing than I've seen in some fics.
I think that if writers can keep some of these questions in mind, there is a much better chance that they will avoid some of the pitfalls.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 09:15 pm UTC (link)
Generally, there is a better way. Sometimes the better way is an awful lot of effort, though. Thank you for responding.

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[info]darlas_mom
2007-10-23 02:48 am UTC (link)
Here via Kita.

This is really thoughtful and amazing, and I'm going to stick it in my memories to go over in the future.

Reading the comments here reminds me of the times I've tried to write about other cultures, and makes me want to sink down a little in my seat. I actually had started a series once where the main chars were Eastern and Middle Eastern, and even though I studied LIKE CRAZY to try and accurately depict the cultures, I now can't help but wonder if I did it in a way that might've come off as insensitive. (I have never finished it, though, so I can't exactly show it to someone and ask. :-/)

In short, I think this post is made of win. :-)

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 09:28 pm UTC (link)
There's a lot of great discussion in the comments here, which I'm thrilled about. And yeah, in part I'm really glad I never found the internet when I was a teenager, because I would have posted my ramblings and I'm kinda thinking that I made some fairly insensitive mistakes.

But I guess you could ask a friend to take a look at your unfinished work, if there's someone who's judgement you trust on the matter?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jennem
2007-10-23 03:22 am UTC (link)
Supplemental notes:
On censorship: Censorship is when a controlling group or body deletes or withholds information from the public. I am not a controlling group or body, although if you feel the need for some sort of dictator in your life, please apply to me in writing.


<3. My favorite saying is, your right to freedom of speech doesn't change my right to call you an asshole when you're acting like an asshole.

Very well thought out post. And, very interesting in light of recent events.

Thanks.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 09:29 pm UTC (link)
I figured, someone's bound to bring up censorship, might as well save an intermediate step. Thanks!

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[info]penpusher
2007-10-23 04:54 am UTC (link)
Pointed here via the goodness of [info]skywardprodigal. Very interesting discussion and good food for thought. Thanks.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 09:30 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. I appreciate your response.

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[info]aris_tgd
2007-10-23 04:54 am UTC (link)
Thanks for this. I'm going to nail it to my wall. (Well, metaphorically. In literalspace it's just going in my memories.)

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[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 09:31 pm UTC (link)
Well, maybe bluetac rather than nails, I'm don't think this is the final word on the matter, but thank you!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]asknosecrets
2007-10-23 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Thank you - i've been looking for something like this, because i'm just about to start rewriting a story where i'm considering the issues of race/culture with the characters. Ironically, it's *about* race/culture, but not in a human way (fantasy novel).

Of the human characters is a British-born man with Indian parents - visibly "not white". and last time, shamed to say, I ignored that as being anything other than "He's the British one" - my other main characters are Irish, so him being English is a little different. I'm still trying to fathom out how to handle it, without being an arse about it - working out how much it's an issue, how much it should be an issue.

While until now everything i've seen has been about dealing with black characters, it's a big help in what i'm writing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brown_betty
2007-10-23 09:12 pm UTC (link)
If this is helpful to you, I'm immensely gratified.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]asknosecrets, 2007-10-23 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2007-10-23 09:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]asknosecrets, 2007-10-23 09:27 pm UTC

[info]lady_ganesh
2007-11-02 01:33 am UTC (link)
[info]ranalore linked me from...wherever she got the link from. This is wonderful, very thoughtful.

I write a lot of Asian characters from manga fandom, which is in some ways easier-- most of them live in relatively fantastic worlds-- but harder in others, as, hey, all the characters are often persons of color and am I really getting the culture right or do I just think I do? And does the hideously sloppy characterization in, say, Weiss Kreuz really excuse the liberties taken by me as a fanfic author? And...I don't always know, honestly. I try to just take the characters as they're given and go from there, trying to make them as consistent as I can.

I've got an Angel crossover coming up and I'm really stressing about Gunn. His voice is actually pretty easy, but I don't want to fall into too many stereotypes with him, or make some of the mistakes IMO the Angel writers did. I've got this post bookmarked now though!

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[info]brown_betty
2007-11-02 01:44 am UTC (link)
I think in some sense "better than the source" is not a bad benchmark, it's sort of like leaving the campground tidier than you found it.

Thanks for commenting, and good luck with Gunn!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lady_ganesh, 2007-11-02 01:48 am UTC

[info]lupabitch
2007-11-21 09:39 pm UTC (link)
Hi there, here from [info]catgryph who posted a link to this.

This is an excellent essay. I'm actually approaching it from a somewhat different viewpoint; I'm a nonfiction writer, and also a neopagan. Cultural appropriation, particularly of Native American/First Nations cultures, is fairly common among some neopagans, as well as New Agers. How does this relate to your essay? Well, a number of people form their opinions of people outside their own cultures from either fiction, or nonfiction that's heavily laced with fiction--or just bad scholarship.

It's important for people to be mindful of how they portray the Other, whether in fiction or nonfiction, for many of the same reasons, including the ones you mentioned above. Either way, it can have a serious impact on the people being presented, whether in biographical or fictional form.

In other words, nice work.

(Reply to this)


[info]snake_easing
2009-02-15 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this post, I find it very thought-provoking.

I found it because I was looking for that meta about comics with a diagram showing that most 'verses' fandom was comics canon--you know, very little overlap. It was you who wrote that, right? :)

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[info]brown_betty
2009-02-15 10:29 pm UTC (link)
I did write that entry, but I think [info]chevauchee's entry is even more complete.

Man, is lj wacky today for you, too? *reloads eight times in a row*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snake_easing, 2009-02-17 01:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]snake_easing, 2009-02-17 01:12 am UTC

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