Betty ([info]brown_betty) wrote,
@ 2007-02-19 11:49:00
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Current mood:navel gazing
Entry tags:meta: writing

Betty's theory of Fanfic
So, [info]petronelle pointed me to [info]thebratqueen's two step theory of fanfiction which is very thinky, and got me started. In essence, for those too lazy to click the link, TBQ argues that fanfic should stay within two steps of canon if you want your readers to come with you. They can be two big steps, but they need to be there.

1. Gotham is hit by a meteor and everyone dies
2. The ghosts of Batman and Robin haunt the site a million years later.

or

1. Bruce realizes he is in love with Alfred
2. Smut.

I may be misrepresenting her, so I encourage you to go read it yourselves.

However, to me, the way fanfic works is slightly different. I think fanfic, or at least a large body of fanfic works by asking, "what if?" What if Tim were transgendered? What if Bruce were a psychopath in the clinical sense? Or perhaps merely "if." If Bruce gave Tim homework, what would it look like? If Tim and Cass got to really know each other, what would happen?

Ifs are free. Your readers are willing to spot you your if; you don't have to justify it. Your if can be, "What if Bruce were a hamster," and your readers will go, "oooookay, lemme see what you've got." Where the writer earns the right to the if is how she handles the then.

If: Steph got a Green Lantern ring
Then: she would discover that power sometimes makes existing problems more difficult to solve, and brings its own problems with it.

The then is the hard part. Think of it as an equation: if + canon = then. You can't cheat on the then. The if is where all the cheating comes in. The if is your variable, the then is the result, and adjusting your results for a nicer hypothesis is frowned on the scientific fanfic community. Now, you can fiddle with your if until you get a then you like, that's certainly permitted, although to my mind the more difficult way to go about it. But you can't cheat on the then if you want your readers to trust you. You don't get:

if: Dick and Babs slept together due to wacky sex-pollen shenanigans
then: they live together happily ever after.

It doesn't follow, and besides, you've slipped something in there invisibly next to the if and the canon in the equation. That's cheating.

A successfully executed then earns you the right to another if, if you so desire. You don't get:

if: Bruce and Clark are in a sexual relationship
if: Kon and Tim are in a sexual relationship
if: Kara and Cass are in a sexual relationship
then: it's like the Brady Bunch but with more incest!

However:

if: Bruce and Clark are in a sexual relationship
then: their respective wards/half-clones find out, and work out how they feel about it.
if: Tim and Kon are forced to examine their feelings
then: they come to a new awareness of how they feel about each other.
if: Kara and Cass feel left out and start spending time with each other
then: it's like the Brady Bunch, but with more incest!

Could work, if the author was very patient, and willing to let it develop organically.

I think some fic takes canon up on the if it neglected to answer, and some fic merely posits an if and lets the reader supply the then. But that's another ass-load of blather for another time.

Argue with me!




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[info]glossing
2007-02-19 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Where the writer earns the right to the if is how she handles the then.
YES. I can't argue with you - I can play spot the fic (which is fun!) and I can vehemently nod and flail around at how *cleanly* you've delineated the situation, but you're not going to hear any argument from me.

I've never actually been able to grok the Two-Step Theory, but mapping it onto logical propositions works really well for me. I tend to think of canon and its characterization(s) as bundles of propositions in themselves, so - the validity/acceptability of the then depends, for me, on how well it responds to all those propositions. Does Tim have ooky feelings around strong, assertive women that tend to make him flee and/or freeze? If so, someone's then that incorporates yet more ooky reactions will work better for me than a then that shows him flinging himself with love and determination at Selina.

Where I tend to flunk then arguments is when they're drawn more from assumptions about the "real world" and "real people" (that is, when they don't refer to canon). Teenaged boys like boobies and easy women wouldn't work for me as justification for the second then I described in the previous paragraph, but something kind of like Tim is devoted to Dick, whether he's Robin, Nightwing, or Batman *would*.

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[info]glossing
2007-02-19 05:59 pm UTC (link)
And for "easy women", please read that with a full helping of irony.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-19 06:04 pm UTC (link)
No fear!

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-19 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Yes, perhaps I should have written it "if + canon/'canon' = then" as Te would. Because obviously, as I have metad before, canon isn't something solid and objective, which could be why some people will think a then follows logically and some people will (ideally) cough politely and move on to the next fic.

Have you read Benway, by the way?

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[info]glossing
2007-02-19 06:22 pm UTC (link)
I have indeed read Benway. "Morning in America" continues to freak the ever-living snot out of me, and the YJ dying-in-space thing is probably tied for favorite gen of mine with your Robin-does-his-homework.

canon isn't something solid and objective, which could be why some people will think a then follows logically and some people will (ideally) cough politely and move on to the next fic
Mmm, true. There are pieces that I don't necessarily *agree* with, but I can certainly see where, in the broadest sense, they're working from canon. Other times, even given canon's insane multiplicity, I'm left wondering. Outright shipfic tends to do this to me most frequently, actually.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-19 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Well, there are few pairings in the DCU that don't need a mighty big if to get you the the "and then they lived happily ever after," which is, I think, the ideal outcome for shipfic. I think. Shipfic isn't how my brain naturally works, most of the time.

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[info]glossing
2007-02-19 07:50 pm UTC (link)
there are few pairings in the DCU that don't need a mighty big if to get you the the "and then they lived happily ever after," which is, I think, the ideal outcome for shipfic
That's about what I was thinking, yes. Shipfic imposes brings along with it its own innate logic - it's not necessarily One True Destined Love, but there is the whole matched-forever-and-ever pair at work? (In my eyes, disclaim, disclaim.) And in a world like the DCU, people and circumstances just aren't easily malleable in that direction.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-19 07:58 pm UTC (link)
Well, hmm, I don't think shipfic needs to be all DESTINY and ONE TRUE PAIRING ALL OTHERS ARE FALSE. But it does need to, I think, leave the reader with the idea that the pairing (or triad, or what have you) has a foreseeable happy future together.

I think.

Next up, Betty pretends to be an expert in thinking in five dimensions!

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[info]delurker
2007-02-21 12:16 am UTC (link)
I think that shipfic can wind up building off fanon (for lack of a better word) rather than canon - that is, readers have done the "two steps from canon" so often that they're willing to start their two steps from further out: they give two steps from canon gratis, and then allow the writer to take two steps more.

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[info]kyuuketsukirui
2007-02-21 01:28 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, any established relationship fic is going to be "if X and Y then Z" rather than just "if Y then Z", because you're asking people to take "if these people are together" along with your plot if. The bigger a leap from canon X is, the fewer people there are willing to buy it.

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[info]witchwillow
2007-02-19 06:23 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I think you're looking at TBQ's premise and restating, but you're not actually saying anything different. You're still doing two steps.

For example you've explained that:

If: Bruce and Clark are in a sexual relationship
then: it's like the Brady Bunch, but with more incest!

Would be a great big WTF! Because the reader would be left going 'How did they get there'

In TBQspeak, she'd be saying 'it's more than two steps'. You've essentially shown that two steps to the then. And if you want more you need another two steps.

And I think 'if-then' works as a formula to take you two step by two step to where you might want to go. It leaves you aware of how long the story will need to be and what it will need to cover, especially if you start out with something way left field.

Example:

If: Bruce found a GL ring as a child
Then: Might Bruce have developed a global sense of protection for the planet vs simply for his city.
If: Bruce became such a hero
Then: He and Clark might have found themselves with more in common from their first meeting.
If: They were friendlier
Then: They could have developed some sort of attraction.

Of course, that might just be my inner S/B shipper coming out.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-19 06:36 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I realize it's not really a radical departure from TBQ's theory, which I essentially agree with. Just in my head, it's not so much the two steps as the relationship the two steps have to each other, if that makes sense? Not so much the magical number two as variable --> outcome.

Tangentially, I don't think it's that big of a WTF to have Bruce and Clark in a romantic relationship. Frankly, those two flirt as much as Batman and Catwoman.

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[info]witchwillow
2007-02-19 08:12 pm UTC (link)
Frankly, those two flirt as much as Batman and Catwoman.

And I don't think Batman and Catwoman have given each other pet names.

S!

B!

Ahh J. Loeb. You are my favourite romance writer.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-19 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Have you read Petra's Bruce/Clark Loeb pastiche? I recommend it.

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[info]petronelle
2007-02-20 04:16 pm UTC (link)
You are too kind.

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[info]witchwillow
2007-02-20 08:09 pm UTC (link)
I've read it. And I've mocked the style myself in comments a time or two.

Loeb remains one of my favourite romance writers. Cause seriously? Love through out the ages, in all dimensions and incarnations, you are the better half of him? Could it get any more gay? Barring the Batusi that is.

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[info]rubynye
2007-02-19 06:38 pm UTC (link)
Argue with me!

I don't wanna! So there!

Seriously, I do find this and the Two Step theory both good ways of stating the same essential concept; however, I think that stating the concept in different ways highlighhts different areas of it and makes it as a whole more accessible to more people. Otherwise said, I find both posts valuable.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-19 08:00 pm UTC (link)
Okay, yeah, it's not *really* a counter-thesis to TBQ's. It's more of a restatement, or uh... *twirly motion* corollary? Footnote?

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[info]glossing
2007-02-19 08:02 pm UTC (link)
It's a restatement that has a very different internal dynamic. Her two steps aren't necessarily sequential, while yours are classic logic. Maybe?

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[info]__marcelo
2007-02-19 08:18 pm UTC (link)
They feel like vaguely dual theories; "two steps" is topological (in the 'network topology' sense), while "if/then" is logical. With some assumptions, a model could be built where both are essentially the same theory (probably along the lines of canon/fics being graph nodes, and links being hypothesis that produce if/then relationships between the nodes), but that'd add little to the discussion :p.

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[info]glossing
2007-02-19 08:32 pm UTC (link)
I don't know, it might add *a lot* to the discussion.

Or my head, anyway. :D

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[info]jacquez
2007-02-20 08:25 pm UTC (link)
I don't think ifs are entirely free. I don't think they have to be within two steps of canon, mind, but I think there are certain ifs that people (by which I mean me) are just not gonna give ya.

My "favorite" if-I-ain't-givin'-ya is "everyone is gay", which is more-or-less a collapsed version of your multiple-ifs situation. And I think -- you can break things like that out into multiple ifs, sure, but the fact that there's a name (and in some fandoms) a well-understood abbreviation for some of those big "ifs" says to me that they're...not mentally broken out by the readers, so much. (I think the writers might have them broken out -- oh, oh, if so-and-so are in love, and then if so-and-so are secretly elves -- and they don't see it as one big thing. But meanwhile the readers are all OMGWTF GAY INAPPROPRIATE ELVES.)

Or possibly I'm just completely insane and unwilling to spot the author a big if. :)

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-20 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'll spot you "everyone is gay," if what follows is a comedic catastrophe in which our heroes attempt to investigate their sudden gaying and while having sex with the least appropriate person at the least appropriate time.

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[info]jacquez
2007-02-20 09:38 pm UTC (link)
teehee.

I'm pretty sure I've seen that done, actually, but in general, if I'm going to give someone that particular if, I need to already trust the author.

I think it might be worthwhile for an author to think carefully about ALL her ifs, and see if they accidentally add up to something like "everyone is gay". Further, it's probably worthwhile to take your ifs and check them for cliches, and ask yourself whether you're doing anything interesting to lift your story out of that cliche...

Just -- there are a lot of ifs out there that, you're right, they're free and the vast majority of people are going to grant them. But there are a lot where an author would be well served to examine their if closely.

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[info]reshelved
2007-02-20 08:40 pm UTC (link)
This makes a lot of sense to me as a restatement (or whatever!). I mean, I understand the gist of the Two-Step Theory, but the if-then format puts it into terms that I find more intuitively understandable.

Readers are willing to go along with a lot (Dexter Morgan as Robin!) as long as the writer makes a decent effort at showing the consequences of the change he's made or pointing out where those consequences already existed in the canon.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-21 05:38 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I didn't mean to say that the two step theory was wrong, just that I stared at it for a while and then thought, wait, so you're saying that…

Readers are willing to go along with a lot (Dexter Morgan as Robin!) as long as the writer makes a decent effort at showing the consequences of the change he's made or pointing out where those consequences already existed in the canon.

Yes, exactly! Being honest with the consequences is required in order for people to trust you.

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[info]oyster_district
2007-02-21 04:13 am UTC (link)
Sweet Jesus, you've just narrowed down into a single equation EXACTLY what good "hard" SF is.

If + known science = good SF.

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-21 05:37 am UTC (link)
Yes, it's the "known science" bit where authors most often screw up, in my experience.

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[info]kyuuketsukirui
2007-02-21 05:23 am UTC (link)
I can't argue! It makes too much sense!

Also, is there a transgendered Tim fic? Because I would like the link if so, pls. :)

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[info]brown_betty
2007-02-21 05:36 am UTC (link)
Te's written a lot of stuff examining Tim and gender. Her Intimates series explores, as a developing theme, Tim's weak sense of self and what that means to gender identity, and her The Fools who Do series deals with gender swap and gender identity in a way not normally encountered in genderswap fic.

Or, shorter, and perhaps closest to what you're looking for, All the Things of the World, a one off.

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[info]kyuuketsukirui
2007-02-21 05:40 am UTC (link)
Cool, thanks! Anything that "deals with gender swap and gender identity in a way not normally encountered in genderswap fic" sounds good to me. :)

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