Culturally, what constitutes incest is more varied. Parent-child is pretty much universal, but siblings, cousins, maternal relations, paternal... there's variation.

The Westermarck effect, in which people raised together below a certain age develop sexual repulsion, that really does seem to be universal and incredibly strong. And interesting, not only because of the strength of its effect, but because it doesn't necessarily preclude a certain degree of sexual experimentation. In the kibbutz case studies, where all the kids were raised together, they practised kissing and playing doctor, even heavy petting and simulated/attempted intercourse, after a certain point just... stopped and the people became sexually indifferent to the point of sexual repulsion. The study wasn't able to find a single recorded case of sexual intercourse between members of the same kibbutz and age group. Not one.

I do think this thing is interesting because it's so strong, and it's also such a great example of innate instinct and environmental effects and imprinting generally.

Yes, it seemed simpler to have the discussion without bringing up moieties.

The Westermark effect *is* interesting, but unless I'm mistaken, (which I very well could be) only would apply to sibling incest, yes?

Yes, or quasi-sibling incest.

Though there does seem to be something similar between parent-child, looking at cases of GSA (genetic sexual attraction) between adopted children/parents. There is a school of thought that it should better be called "Genetic attraction", which can expres itself sexually, since some of the people compulsions felt, especially at first, seem more like missed bonding (urge to touch, suckle, have physical contact, stroke hair, etc.), but then becomes also sexual. GSA can be parent-child, sibling, one-way or mutual.

It's funny, because being raised by someone does seem to create that sexual repulsion, even though it also affects what people look for in a spouse (women with older fathers tend to have older husbands, for example).

You reject the Westermarck effect?

(I'm not sure it totally explains the taboo, but it seems relevant.)

(And, uh. jamjar is faster on the draw, and also has more braincells, so carry on...)

Isn't it just so damn cool? I love things like this. Instinct, basic genetic compulsion, but with a huge environmental component! Life is just so neat.

I love you dearly, and think you are one of the smartest and wittiest people I've ever met, online or off. I'm saying that because it's true, because if I end up pissing you off by what I'm about to say (which I don't want to do but think I need to risk in order to say this) I want you to know I hold you in high regard, and because my diplomacy program has gone buggy and I'm not sure my tact filters are online.

But, well, at bottom, isn't this one of those "hey you fangirls, you're wrong to do what you find fun" posts? I mean, lots of bad SPN slash treats incest as nonproblematic and the taboo as nonexistent; lots of bad slash is, well, bad. But that doesn't mean good slash can make intense use of it, that it can't be written about well. The incest taboo doesn't even eradicate real-life incest, so I don't think it should prevent people from writing stories, just that they should strive to rise to the challenge their chosen topic presents.

I may be reacting like this because I'm an ardent fan of another fandom with an incestuous most popular pairing (see icon), or because stories don't always map to the morality of real life (recently, in response to my ranting about a political sex scandal involving an adult and several teenagers, someone who I thought knew me pretty well expressed surprise that I found it wrong for a congressman to discuss sex with pages when I write romances involving adults and teenagers. I was a little dismayed). Or because messed-up things are interesting to write about and writing about them isn't necessarily at all a condonement of them (as I know you know). Or because I need a kick in the head. Or something.

Hunh? No, I love Wincest! It's just that if I read one more defense of it that claims it's okay because it's not like they're going to have inbred children, I'm going to run out into the night screaming like a loon. That's not what incest is about.

Oh! Oh, I get it now.

Also, thank you for not minding when I got all Passionate. I do that sometimes, unfortunately, but it usually clears up pretty quickly.

*hugs your knees and works on earning the icon*

No, I'm glad to know you would hit me upside the head if I ever said anything so stupid, and I'd better edit the post so as to clear that up.

Or, quoting what I said to Jane, becuase I think I got it right there: "To me, Wincest is much more interesting if the taboo contravened is against insularity, because dude. Winchesters."

It's true that Supernatural has lazy writing and bad anthropology, though I forgive them because they provided a timely windigo pop-culture reference to go with my term paper last year on cannibalism and repressed sexuality in Three Day Road. But that's beside the point. The anthro they use is lazy.

That said, it's worth noting that the incest taboos are nearly all heterosexual in nature. The cultural taboos against homosexuality (of whatever strength) tend to overshadow those of same-sex incest in most people's minds.

There've been a certain number of arguments made that recognition and desire of the brother (as a model of kindred spirit, but also in the literal blood-sense) is (or was) part of a Stonewall-era emergence of gay male consciousness. The best of these arguments that I've encountered is in Mark Thompson's essay, "We, Two Brothers Clinging," in his book, Gay Body: A Journey Though Shadow to Self.

Which is not to say that the incest taboo isn't pervasive or important (god knows my reaction to my own brother most days is to smack him, and without any underlying whathaveyou, but then we're not the same sex, and we've never gotten along). It's also not to say that a large numbr of SPN writers don't write incest very badly.

I'm loving Supernatural, and a great deal of the Supernatural fic.

But what one is taught about one's taboos isn't always how the taboo actually functions, and I've seen a couple of discussions about incest that treat it primarily as a prohibition of inbreeding. To me, Wincest is much more interesting if the taboo contravened is against insularity, because dude. Winchesters.

I have no idea what the incest taboo looks like in cultures that are more permissive or accepting of homosexuality, but I'd really like to.

I've never been able to shake the notion that given the predominant heterosexualtiy thing, that there's an element of devaluing the woman-product underlying some of the earlier roots of the incest taboo; with the whole women granted as gifts to men in other tribes to form social bonds (which ties into the Levi-Strauss thing, really). That said, there are quite likely some counter-examples to this in the more matrilineal societies in pre-colonial South-East Asia.

But yeah, the "look! No birth defects!" thing kind of irks me as a complete justification of Wincest.